Comment on a news article on the high rate of "flunking out" at Universities today.
"Flunking out" is a scam. This is designed and planned by the University system so they can make money off of unqualified Freshmen. For example. I went to the University of Illinois B.S. 1981, M.C.S. 1985. I worked video for the graduation one year and got to thinking about the numbers. I did a little research. For every year from 1950 to 1990 (at least) the Freshman class at the University of Illinois School of Engineering was twice the size of the graduating class. This was a product of grading on a strict bell curve (15% flunked out each semester). The curious thing is that HALF the attending freshmen NEVER GOT A DEGREE. This was a systematic plan for year-after-year-after-year. Reason I suppose, it was easier to get a qualified class of Seniors if you just flunked out the problem students instead of trying to actually teach them. Problem, NOBODY TOLD THOSE FRESHMAN STUDENTS. They had just spent 12 years in public school being passed along and had no idea the "meat grinder" they were enrolling in. I did not know. My friend "Mark" was one of the students that flunked out. He was a bright, artistic, and enthusiastic guy. I lived with him during his final semester of failure. In many ways, it ruined his life. He married and had two children, but died of cancer almost twenty years ago. My friend "Ted" also flunked out and got lost. I think he is now homeless, or institutionalized, if he is even still alive. I have other friends that got "lost" after they were flunked out. For every life made better by the University of Illinois Engineering School, one life was "flunked out" and in many ways destroyed. This is America. For every person that "makes it" one other person gets "thrown in the garbage."
copyright (c) 2018
William Schaeffer
After more or less cruising through high school and qualifying as a National Merit Scholarship semifinalist, I darn near flunked out the first year of ECE by being totally unprepared for the level of work required. I nearly flunked out the second year by prioritizing my social life higher than classes. After that I got it turned around but it was a hard lesson to learn. While I think there's room to do a better job of informing incoming freshmen that there's a lot of work ahead of them, it's not the University's fault that so many students spend that first big step toward independence in ways that are counter-productive, if not self-destructive.
ReplyDeleteThe only D's and F's I gave (and they were very few -- no bell curve) were well deserved. I did teach across from other grad students who hated their students (one in particular who always called them "animals") and showed it, and faculty member who had no mercy. A lot of is not deliberate bell-curve grading but gross indifference on the part of the instructor.
ReplyDeleteBoth you guys understand the argument, but miss the point I am making. You survived. But the system GUARANTEES that not everybody survives NO MATER WHAT THEY DO. It is just a numbers game -- i.e. statistics: FOR EVERY SUCCESS, ONE PERSON GETS DESTROYED. I believe that there is an entirely different form of social organization and educational benefit that doesn't necessitate that ANYONE gets thrown in the garbage. We can actually make a place for everyone to have a happy and productive and meaningfully rewarding life in a working society. However --right now by my estimates -- about 40% of the entire population of the USA gets thrown in the garbage. But don't take my word for it, just do a youtube search of the homeless people living on the streets of Los Angeles. Do a youtube search of Detroit or East Cleveland. Get in real with real people living life on the margin. There is no immediate hurry. Think about it for a few months and consider the possible alternatives for us all so that nobody has to be thrown in the garbage in the future. People DON'T HAVE TO BE thrown in the garbage.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4kbB706kso
ReplyDeleteThere are (or at least used to be) 13 Universities in the State of Illinois "fleet". Some of them are easier to get through than others. I know people that started at UIUC and transferred to ISU or SIU and then to Eastern, trying to find a better fit - which could easily translate to being easier academically but might also be a financial thing. And there are also community colleges which can be a very good fit for someone who needs to develop good study skills. One thing that exists here now that didn't when you and I were students is the "Parkland Pathways" program where a student admitted to UIUC first attends Parkland for one or two years and gradually transitions to full-time at UIUC.
ReplyDeleteI have a relative that started at SIU and lasted a little over a year. He didn't want to start with basic 100 level courses, he didn't want to be enrolled in a standard curriculum, and he maybe didn't want to do quite as much work as he was expected to. He also got into the whole SIU "party camping on weekends" thing that was popular at the time down there. 20 years later he's doing very well but it was, at best, a hard road to travel.
I don't think it's UIUC's job to produce a system that allows everyone to succeed at any cost. Granted, some students who are here shouldn't be, but I suspect quite a few of your theoretical 50% engineering "flunk outs" (based on graduation counts) actually graduated in some other college or at some other University. It bothers me more than a little bit that you have convinced yourself it's so black and white. Whatever happened to you that leads you to that conclusion - especially the "DESTROYED" part - I'm sorry and I hope you are ultimately able to develop a more nuanced view - blaming the situation on a "system" that is designed to "make money off of unqualified freshmen" is simply not grounded in reality.
Some 2014 graduation rates:
UIUC 84%
UI Chicago 51%
Purdue 71%
Michigan 90%
A factoid, this from collegeactual.com:
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UIUC Has One of the Best Freshman Retention Rates in the Country
With 93.0% of students staying on for a second year, University of Illinois at Urbana - Champaign is one of the best in the country when it comes to freshman retention.
Nationwide, the average first year to second year retention rate is 71.0%. When looking at just colleges and universities in Illinois, the average is 72.0%.
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David, Sorry to hear about your relative and his difficulties at S.I.U. he will have a very difficult time for the rest of his life now that he has been stigmatized by the academic system. His life expectancy has been shortened dramatically. He needs all the empathy and support he can find. Sorry about that.
DeleteI think you would like to believe that he's scarred by the process and will somehow never recover. That's so far removed from his actual post-college experience, it's laughable. He screwed up, he ended up with some lean years, and he's now doing very well as a person / employee / husband / professional. He got over it and I think recognized his part in creating a situation where he was destined to fail. SIU told him to go away until he was serious about education. He didn't come back but at this point probably could if he wanted to - which he doesn't.
DeleteWe disagree on the fundamental nature of school and government. I've seen too many people destroyed economically, psychologically, socially, physically in this culture and this academic system to have many positive responses. Obviously, you do not see what I am talking about and I personally am not surprised. There is no LOVE in America nad there was no LOVE at the University and there especially was no LOVE at PLATO. I think the fact that I received no personal correspondence from almost all my former classmates and coworkers in the intervening 30 years is good confirmation of that fact. Good luck and "thanks for nothing" U of I.
ReplyDeleteGeorge Carlin has some good observations:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILQepXUhJ98
If 90% of Freshmen pass, then 35% of Freshmen STILL eventually flunk out and never graduate. Example .9 x.9 x.9 x .9 = .65
ReplyDeleteIf 85% of Freshmen pass, like in the 1970's and 1980's then almost HALF of the Freshemn NEVER GET A DEGREE
Example .85 x .85 x .85 x .85 = .52
This is by design, to make money off of marginal students. For every student that got a degree, there was another student that FLUNKED OUT for the first time in their entire life. "Too bad suckers." You can BET that Ivy league schools have nowhere NEAR that "flunk out" rate...
There was no LOVE at the University of Illinois.
(aside to G. David What was that "affectionate" nick name you used to call me? Remember? Hint: it rhymes with "class")
"Peace Out"
Mercifully, Bill, I don't remember. It's been 25 years since they canned CERL, much longer since you graduated. I shamelessly compartmentalize you in my memory as the person that wrote the greatest GCS song ever, "The Adventures of Steamboat Willie". ADF was also pretty special, though I'd forgotten it until I went back and listened to your YouTube recording. Those two pieces, alone, were what put the GCS on the map. OK, "Foreplay" was important too. The first true waveform synthesizer, and you were a key participant.
ReplyDeleteWell, thanks you are one of the few that remember Bigfoot. It did not even get a mention in the PLATO book. It is a miracle that a copy even exists and a testament to my tenacity and solitary dedication. Unfortunately my entire University experience is virtually useless to me today in any capacity at all. It was a glorious waste of time and a waste of my life. Too bad. Thanks for nothing, University of Illinois.
ReplyDeleteBrian Dear's new book on the history of PLATO absolutely ignored the PLATO Music project and the PLATO music project got almost no mention at all. Why is that except meanness, and selfishness, on the part of Brian Dear? He worked on the music project at Delaware. He visited PLATO Music project. Brian Dear totally panned all the work we did and he was an insider. THIS DEMONSTRATES AN overwhelming LACK OF LOVE and ETHICS in the PLATO community.
ReplyDeleteBrian worked for decades, it seems, to write a history of PLATO that is so different from my own experience, it's like he was in a parallel universe somewhere. I'm glad he finally got done with it so he could stop talking about writing it - but it just doesn't sync up well with life at CERL.
DeleteI worked for several years developing the program DISKO" which automatically wrote music. After I left U of Illinois, someone deleted all the source code for that significant idea. Bill Walker later did his PhD research on automatic music writing and never once gave me any credit for pioneering the idea when he was still in high school. There is no LOVE in the PLATO community.
ReplyDeleteEven though the engineers on the PLATO music project had all their tools and supplies paid for, NOBODY helped me record music in any way. All the expenses were my own and nobody helped me at all. I even had to buy my own tape deck, or borrow a tape deck. Except for "allowing me to work" PLATO did nothing to help me actually get that work done.
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, despite the selfish and immature failings of most of the people at CERL PLATO, I did enjoy making music on the synthesizer and programming simple graphics lessons in tutor. Foolishly I assumed...
ReplyDeleteDavid, Thank you for the compliment on the music. It was a long time ago. I totally misread your comment and didn't notice. The Adventures of Steamboat Willie was a special effort. I spent as much time working on that as I did on Bigfoot. That was the song that got me hired on PLATO music project for pay. Nobody ever has ever commented on ADF ever. The program "Matrixer" was my masters thesis -- it used "Serial music composition techniques" (popularized by Arnold Schoenberg) to aid a composer to construct a monophonic melody line. I worked for several years on that program and =adf is the only result that sounded interestingly musical to my ear.
ReplyDeleteI presently work for minimum wage as an event security guard because it is the only work I can find. I am happy to do the work and find it interesting and occasionally enjoyable. My University Education and previous employment are absolutely useless to me in this new career. If I had never gone to the University of Illinois, I might be much more advanced in my career as a security guard and I might have a house and I might be married and I might have a family and I might have a happy life. But it is doubtful if any of that will ever happen and I can only THANK the University of Illinois for that. Do not EVER let your children, nieces, nephews, or friend's children attend the University of Illinois. You will regret the decision.
ReplyDeleteFor the record: Disko27
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlt7vB_5A8Q
One day I will start a discussion on who deleted the second half of the source code for "The Sixth Symphony"? Marshall Midden typed the entire first movement in OPAL code. And yet, after he left, the second half of the source code was missing, so Paul silver retyped in the OPAL code for the end of the Sixth Symphony. Who do you think secretly deleted the end of the source code for the Sixth Symphony? It was someone at PLATO secretly destroying other people's work. I think I know who it was.
ReplyDeleteHey Bill - my recollection is that no one deleted the second half of Marshall's work - he never finished coding it.
DeletePaul
That is not true. Marshall was INDIGNANT when you said he never finished it. How did we listen to the sixth symmphony when the source code was missing?
DeleteDoes anyone know of a "professional" computer programmer that does not complete the source code for the project they are working on?
DeleteAfter Sherwin moved to Florida, he returned for a visit. He found the shell of the original G.C.S. synthesizer gutted and destroyed and laying under the stairs to the fifth floor. who do you think destroyed the original G.C.S.? This machine should have been put in a museum as a artifact of engineering innovation. Instead someone gutted and destroyed the original G.C.S. Who do you think that was?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4gLDXfXgbs
ReplyDeleteThere is no LOVE in America and there was no LOVE on the PLATO system, only competitive back stabbing. Too bad.
ReplyDeleteWow, a few different directions here. FIrst thing that occurs to me, that I would be curious about -- is the UofI Engineering 50% attrition rate fairly typical (across majors within UofI, across other Engineering schools)?
ReplyDeleteI entered UofI "Computer Engineering", got crappy grades first year and put on academic probation (similar to GDF, maybe, except for the probation -- I pulled almost straight A's last coupla years of high school, and didn't take coursework as seriously as I should have), and then missed my probation GPA by 0.7 grade points, so I was kicked out.
Spent maybe a year working at CERL and other stuff, then was re-admitted to LAS Math/CS (easier entrance requirements than Engineering) and finished B.S. Went into the Math Ph.D. program, and after a year or two realized that I didn't want to (or wasn't able to) spend four years of my life sitting in the Math library, trying to prove some theorem or other, so I took the "consolation prize" of a M.S., and thought I was done with school.
Several years later, I was sharing a house with a dude whose girlfriend was a freshman in T&AM, and I ended up helping her with her engineering math homework, and I thought "hey, I can do this; I'm not doing anything else, really", so I got in the Ph.D. program in T&AM, and eventually graduated (although I had a very difficult time keeping up, had to switch advisors a coupla times, and ended up taking something like six years).
In summary - yes, I got the "top dog" prize, but for many of those years I was just barely keeping my head above the "graduate / dropout" water.
Dunno if there's a moral here, but I agree that during the times when I was dropped out (and my mom asked me to lie about it to her sister and my cousins, when I came home to visit for the holidays) I was pretty much aimless, broke for a while, even homeless for a brief time (crashed on friends' couches, etc...)
Tom, Thank you for your response. I discovered this number analysis of graduation years ago and thinking about it over the decades really bothered me. I knew boys that were intelligent, and creative, and they just got thrown in the garbage by the University of Illinois. In a big way my life was thrown in the garbage by the University of illinois. I graduated broke and in debt with no career or job offers. University of Illinois was absolutely no help in getting a job once I left campus. I never married and never had a decent career and now feel that my time and the people I met (except for a few generous people like yourself) were a waste of my life. Too bad. I thought that college was designed to make me a better person. All college did was try to make me into a one dimensional robot. University of Illinois sucks.
DeleteI was talking to my student dentist at USC today. In his curriculum at University of Southern California EVERY SINGLE STUDENT DENTIST GRADUATES. I rest my case. University of Illinois was a intellectual "meat market" that threw MANY young men's lives in the garbage with no heart or concern at all.
ReplyDeleteI wonder what the flunk out rate is at Yale or Princeton? i wonder what the flunk out rate is at a typical Junior College? NEVER FORGET: For every successful graduate of the University of Illinois school of Engineering, another young man got his life thrown in the garbage.
ReplyDelete